Całość tekstu jest traktowana jako integralna całość, można ją cytować, ale zgodnie z prawem z podaniem źródła tzn. autora książki i jej tytułu, osoby udzielające wywiadu, no i tłumacza amatora:). Tłumaczenie jest moje, dlatego jest pewnie w nim dużo błędów:), pro publico bono, całkowicie bez wynagrodzenia.
Priest of Jews and Polish nationality
with priest Grzegorz Pawłowski (Jakub Hersz Griner)
You was born in 1931 in Zamość as Jakub Hersz Griner. How did it happen that a boy from a pious Jewish family became a Catholic priest?
My mother told me during the war that I would be a Messiah soldier. I remember her words well and I think that they were a prophecy. In relation to myself, however, I use the term servant of the Messiah because I serve him. If it wasn’t any war, it isn’t obvious that I would become a Christian.
I learned a little Polish language before the war, when I spent my holidays in the countryside where my parents rented an orchard. Knowledge of the Polish later turned out to be a salvation for me because I could pass as a Polish child. My blue eyes helped me in this too. Thanks to this knowledge, I didn’t have any difficulties in learning the prayer. Although during the war I used a baptism certificate, I was baptized only after the war. I received a baptism certificate during the German occupation from an older Jewish boy whom I met on the street. I remember that he didn’t have David's star on his shoulder. He asked me in Yiddish if I wanted to live. "Of course I want to," I said. So he said to wait for him and soon give me a baptism certificate with the name I used later. Although it was probably a false record, it saved my life. Once for example I was in Zamość, in the guards building in front of the forced labor camp for Jews, two Germans said to me: "Come with us, boy" and led me to the headquarters of the Gestapo. There, the Gestapo asked me how old I was. After the answer he hit me in the face. He said, "Not true". I showed them a baptism certificate. If this German at the Gestapo station, who decided to let me then, wanted to identify me as a Jew, it would be enough to check if I was circumcised. I think, however, that this German didn’t do it, because he had God in heart. I remember that at the Gestapo headquarters there was also a young Jewish woman, who was used by one of the Gestapo boys to play with his pistol to kill her. She confessed to being Jewish, and the German who ordered me to release said to the German with a pistol to stop threatening her, because everyone wants to live. Certainly she was later sent to death. As you can see, however, the baptism certificate helped me.
After the war, I came to the orphanage in Tomaszów Lubelski. Preparing myself there for the First Holy Communion, I confessed with tears to the catechist that I had not yet been baptized and asked him to baptize me. Later, I served as an altar-minister for Mass every day. I never concealed my faith. When I went to Staszic Gymnasium in Lublin, during one of the communist mass meeting, on which students and professors were gathered, faith was terribly assail. At that time I was the only one who protested her. They wanted to throw me out of the middle school. Sister Klara Staszczak, Benedictine, who at the time was at the school board, took me to the children's home in Puławy. Also I was in trouble there. In the Czartoryski secondary school in Puławy - to which I attended at that time - I also took a voice on the mass meeting in defense of the Church and the Pope. I was called by the local Security Office. I was told that I wouldn’t finish my final exams if I didn’t tell them about what was going on at the orphanage. I refused to cooperate with them, although I had the conviction that it would mean the end of my education. Sister Klara, however, learned from me about the UB proposal. However, they gave me chance to finish the Czartoryski secondary school and in 1952 I entered the seminary in Lublin, which I graduated in 1958. I came to Puławy as a seminarian and I conducted a summer catechization there. To this day I am very much connected with this city. Although there is a big age difference with the local monastic sisters, they are very close to me. For example, the Mother General is one year younger than the period of time that has passed since my priestly ordination. I have 58 years of priesthood behind me, and she is 57 years old.
When did you tell your parishioners that you are Jewish?
I knew the priests Jews who were hiding from others that they were Jews. One of these priests even spoke Yiddish and everyone knew that he was a Jew. He, however, didn’t acknowledge Jewish nationality. Why a comedy?! How would I, being a priest, guardian of morality, break the fourth commandment of God and deny my parents who were murdered by the Germans during the Holocaust?! How can you deny them?! What should I be ashamed of? My family is holy! I don’t even have to pray for her because I think they are holy martyrs. What did they do wrong? What were they murdered for? They were only killed for being Jews and belonging to the nation with which God made a covenant! I was advised not to reveal my Jewish nationality to the faithful, because this would it disturbs in pastoral work and I would have a hard life. They also worried about what the Poles would say about me. Why should I be silent in such an important matter for me. When in 1966 in the text "From Judaism to Christianity", which appeared in the pages of "Tygodnik Powszechny" under the title “My life”, I revealed my Jewish identity, in the parish in Chodel nobody said a bad word. After that, when I finally gave up the confession that I was a Jew, I felt completely free and faithful to my family. Thanks to this autobiographical article, I found my brother in Israel. Ks. Wincenty Łapkiewicz from Abramowice even asked me to give a retreat just as a Jewish priest. Then, in Gomulka's time, when in Poland there was an anti-Jewish campaign, I worked as a vicar in Abramowice. Nobody bothered me. It didn’t bother anyone that I was a Jew. Now, as I am in Poland, I will appear, as a countryman, in the church of the Divine Mercy in Zamość.
Recently, however, much is said about the so-called Polish anti-Semitism. Did you meet with anti-Semitism on the part of Poles?
What anti-Semitism?! I don’t know what anti-Semitism is on the Polish side! I will not say any bad words about Poles, because they saved my life! I was hiding in a lot of Poles during the war and, frankly, I have not met a single anti-Semite in my life. The Poles didn’t bother me. Nobody said to me, "You Jew!" even though I didn’t hide the fact that I was Jewish. On my book, it is simply written: Fr. Grzegorz Pawłowski - Jakub Hersz Griner. I don’t always talk about Jews in my sermons. Sometimes, of course, according to the circumstances, you have to refer to it. For nationalities shouldn’t be denied or praised too much. And I have a reason for glory from my nationality, for I am of the nation of the Lord Jesus! Nationality, however, isn’t the most important thing for me. Whether anyone is an Arab, a Jew or a Pole makes no difference to me. I live with Arabs as I do with Jews, that is, normally. All these are God's children. There are people and people everywhere. Before the deportation from Zamosc to Izbica, in a hidden room, which was entered through a camouflaged door in the closet, was my mother, two sisters and me. However, the Jewish police discovered this door. We were then sent twenty kilometers to Izbica, from where I escaped during the action. I believe that the Jews shouldn’t have helped the Germans at that time. However, there have been cases like this. However, I don’t want to criticism the Jews or Poles, but I want to build. The Shepherd loves his sheep. These are God's children, lovely sheep.
At some point, however, you decided to leave Poland for Israel. Why?
I wasn’t bad in Poland. I didn’t want to leave. I felt, however, a calling. Just as Jonasz against his will went to Nineveh after God's voice, I felt that I must go to Israel. In 1970, I came to Vienna and stood in front of representatives of Israel in a suit. They kept in touch with Jerusalem all the time and wondered what to do with me. The communist Jew didn’t disturb them, but the Jew and Catholic priest in the same time wasn’t considered a Jew. In the end, I didn’t receive Israeli citizenship on the basis of the "Return" as a Jew, but I only got the status of a permanent resident and only after several years of living in Israel I became a citizen of this state. Even though all my family were Jews, my own brother was also recognized as a Jew and he received Israeli citizenship, it was inscribed in the Israeli proof under the heading "nationality" that I was Polish. So I left Poland for Israel as a Jew, and in Israel, the Jews recognized me as a Pole! I didn’t want to agree with that, because I wasn’t baptized into a Pole. Baptism didn’t make me stop being a Jew. The Germans knew perfectly well who the Jew was. Although Edith Stein was a nun, she died because she was Jewish. Only Israel does not think of people like me as Jews. For example, the High Court in Israel didn’t recognize the much-deserved father Daniel Rufeisen as a Jew. After my intervention, they finally wrote a line to me in the rubric of nationality, which meant that I didn’t formally have any nationality. This line is in evidence to this day. In fact, I have two nationalities and two homelands. I have Polish nationality and Jewish nationality. I have Poland and Israel. I am Pole with a Jewish sign. It makes me a rich and happy man.
Do you easily acclimated in Israel?
Certain things were not easy for me. However, if someone becomes a priest, he must be ready to bear the full consequences. Initially, I had already mentioned problems with the authorities, but also with the family who wanted me to return to Judaism. Nevertheless, I remained with Christianity and the priesthood.
You put a monument to the Jewish cemetery in Izbica commemorating the Jews murdered by the Germans from the ghetto and a matzeva for your mother and sisters. In what state was this cemetery before you took him?
The following picture says a lot about his condition. I am in the Jewish cemetery on which my mother, two sisters and about a thousand Jews were shot, and there a cow is grazing. I could not stand this view. How could I, as a priest, let a cow graze on my mother's grave?! So I ordered the graves of the murdered Jews. What's more, I want to rest beside her after her death. I have prepared a tomb and a tombstone with the image of a mosaic in Tabgha on the Sea of Galilee, where a wonderful multiplication of bread and fish took place. There is a basket with bread and two fish on the mosaic. This mosaic is often placed on a tabernacle. This Christian sign does not offend Jews and suits my tomb, because I can not put a cross in a Jewish cemetery. The tombstone also has an inscription in Polish and Hebrew: "I left my relatives in the face of their extermination to save my life. I gave them in service to God and people, I returned to their place of martyr's death" However, I am not hurry to be in a tomb.
So you want to be buried not in the Catholic cemetery, but in the Jewish cemetery?
Yes, I want to be buried in the Jewish cemetery next to my mother and sisters. The funeral will be Catholic. I also invited Rabbi Michael Schudrich, because I want Kadisz upon my grave. It is disgraceful for a man to deny his own parents. This isn’t allowed for anyone. Don’t be ashamed and wonder what the Poles will tell you. They will not tell you anything. Everyone should stick to their own roots. Mine is Jewish.
St. Igatius Antioch, however, said that “it is pointless to talk about Jesus Christ and to live in Yiddish, because it wasn’t Christianity that acccept Judaism, but Judaism accept Christianity, in which all people who believe in God gathered together". What do you think about his words?
I don’t want to enter into a discussion with st. Igatius. He lived in other times, then there were other problems. Today I see everything differently. I will use the picture. How can there be a tree without roots?! The roots are needed. For example, I fast in Yom Kippur, and on Pesach I eat matzah. I don’t transgress church law. I do everything I can to live in harmony with my identity. Parents must be loved. I don’t criticize st. Igatius, but he had his point of view, and I say what I feel.
How many Hebrew Catholics are in Israel?
About five hundred people are officially registered in the Hebrew Church in Israel. This isn’t small number for the local conditions. We have our own pastoral centers and responsible persons. Christian children learn Hebrew to First Communion and Confirmation and are sent to common colonies. Every Easter in Kiryat Yearim near Jerusalem, we celebrate Mass in Hebrew, to which members of all Hebrew-speaking communities gather. There is a celebration, a picnic, etc. In the former refectory of the monastery at the church of St. Peter in Jaffa, Holy Mass in Hebrew, it is celebrated every Saturday. We also have a library for Poles and a room where they gather. There is a refrigerator for them. Going back to the Hebrew communities, on the behalf of the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, the Jewish Jesuit, Father David Neuhaus, is responsible for the entire Hebrew Church in Israel. In Haifa, the priest of the Hebrew community is a Polish priest, Roman Kaminski. He performs his ministry in the place where Fr. Daniel Rufeisen once worked.
How does the cooperation of Hebrew Catholics with the Neocatechumenal Communities look like in Israel?
Fr. Sławomir Abramowski were active in our Church, who was responsible for the Neocatechumenal Communities. However, Fr David Neuhaus didn’t want to take Fr. Abramowski, because the Neocatechumenal way just bothers us. Neocatechumenate is good for large parishes, not for small communities like ours. The presence of the Neocatechumenate would further divide the still few Hebrew communities.
In 2012, the You participated in the Holy Mass at Deir Rafat, during which the history of statue of Our Lady of the Immaculate from the Warsaw ghetto were introduced to the Hebrew-language communities. The Jewish Catholics were to call "Our Mother from the ghetto." A picture of this figurine was handed over to the Hebrew-speaking community in Haifa. How do you evaluate this event?
I love God's mother. However, I don’t like how the guardian of the ghetto is made of her, while the Jews didn’t know the Mother of God at all. This is an exaggeration. It looks like you want to make Christians out of the Jews after death. Father Józef Maj didn’t ask me at all whether to bring this picture to Israel. He did it without my advice. They praise now how many priests baptized Jews from the Warsaw ghetto. I can sign that priests shouldn’t convert Jews at all during the Holocaust! This wasn’t the time to convert and baptize Jews. You had to give them bread and help them survive.
The priests from the Church of All Saints, however, provided meals to the Jews, if possible. At the presbytery of the church, moreover, not only Jews from Catholics found shelter, but also Jews professing Judaism. Many Jews, like Roman Neuberger, for example, were saved and survived the war. The parish priest, priest Marceli Godlewski was even honored with the Medal of the Righteous Among the Nations.
Father Marcel Godlewski undoubtedly belonged to the medal for saving Jews and I sincerely congratulate him on this medal. However, it was necessary to give up the conversion of Jews who were going to die. This is no reason for the glory that the baptisms were then baptized by the Jews. If someone was baptized during the Holocaust, then often he would stop believing. I know that many Jews baptized at that time, after the war, having already left Israel, abandoned Christianity. It's different when someone in Israel comes to faith alone.
Professor Ludwik Hirszfeld and priest Antoni Czarnecki, however, claimed that the Jews themselves came to priests and asked for baptism. Of course, some of them hoped to save their lives. Some, however, wanted to be baptized only because a real faith in Jesus Christ was born in them. Priests should baptize people who want it.
If someone wants to be baptized, it's good, but not by force. Father who lives in Israel prof. Romuald Weksler-Waszkinel gives interviews in which he claims that I am converting Jews. I am not converting the Jews at all! He should talk to me about it. What does it mean to convert Jews? I baptized and prepared for the First Communion and for Confirmation of a boy who later converted to Judaism and invited me to his Jewish wedding. This boy's father was a Jew, and his mother was a Christian. I asked David Neuhaus if I should go to his wedding. He agreed, so I went and gave him a gift. Christian faith isn’t spreading forcefully.
However, the baptism of people is very different. I will give here some examples. I once baptized a Jew who wanted to be buried near his wife, a Pole. However, when he died, the family buried him in the Jewish cemetery. A comment to this is probably unnecessary. How much I had trouble in Israel and problems with Christians or people who pretended to be Christians. Those baptized Jews were the scumbags, not the Christians. I wouldn’t baptize such Jews. If someone wants to cut himself off from the roots and does not want to love his father and mother, he does not give in to a Christian. Everyone should love their family and their nation.
I once meet a Jew who wanted to be baptized and hated other Jews. I didn’t want to accept his baptism. However, he went abroad and the priest baptized him there. After receiving a special permission from the bishop, he also accepted confirmation and returned to Israel. I was in trouble with him because he was an anti-Semite. You shouldn’t baptize a Jew who hates Jews.
There are very different religious issues here. When I served in Jaffa, I had the opportunity to prepare in Hebrew for the First Holy Communion and Confirmation of a boy from Bat Yam. His mother was a Jewish woman saved from extermination. According to the will of God, this Polish Jew married the Pole. However, when they came to Israel as a couple, they didn’t tell the truth about themselves. They gave up their Christian faith and because of their recognition as Jews - according to the "Law of Return" - they received Israel's citizenship, but they wouldn’t have it if only the Israeli authorities knew they were Christians, in which case the family was afraid to profess their faith in public. Finally, she left for the United States, where his son joined the seminary immediately after graduation and was ordained a priest after working in America, he went to Poland, where he feels good, because his great priestly zeal does not hurt anyone there, as was the case with American priests. Currently, he is a spiritual father at the Seminary in Kalisz. He does habilitation (Habilitation defines the qualification to conduct self-contained university teaching and is the key for access to a professorship in many European countries – info from Wiki).
You are already retired. What is the golden autumn of Jew Catholic priest in Israel?
When old age comes, nobody is looking at me for being a Jew or developing my first textbook for teaching the Catholic religion in Hebrew. They give a young priest from Poland who has learned Hebrew and who runs a pastoral ministry in this language. I have nothing to complain about. Actually, I have everything I need to live here and I don’t have to beg. I have my own flat and an old car that still serves me. I don’t have to be rich. What God gives me, I accept, and whom she sends me, I help him. I often sleep the homeless.
Because I don’t have to work anymore, because a younger priest has replaced me, I can completely devote myself to writing. I'm not idle. I have published five books so far. In April I am going to Poland for the promotion of the sixth book. I believe that writing books about faith is also a kind of pastoral work. They are published in Polish and it will be post-mortem pastoral work. These books will be white ravens once, because as a priest and a Jewish boy saved from sxtermination, thanks to Poles, I am a rare specimen - unique all over the world.
March 2016.
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