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Klincz. Debata polsko - żydowska cz.6

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Tekst jest traktowany jako integralna całość, można go cytować, ale zgodnie z prawem z podaniem źródła, tzn. autora książki i jej tytułu, osoby udzielające wywiadu, no i tłumacza amatora:). Tłumaczenie jest moje (z pomocą Google Translate), dlatego jest pewnie w nim dużo błędów:), pro publico bono, całkowicie bez wynagrodzenia.


In the Church I feel homely
with David Wildstein

We are sitting in the Carmel Café at Savior square in Warsaw. Due to the Tęcza installation, which stood not long time ago on this square, once again from the time of the fight for the presence of the cross at Krakowskie Przedmieście, deep divisions within our nation became visible here. In spite of dismantling this repeatedly set-fire installation - as you remember, we were once witnesses - these divisions not only weakened, but even intensified, transforming into an extremely fierce and brutal battle for the face of contemporary Poland and for shape and the essence of Polish identity. One can risk the claim that just as in the Second Republic of Poland there was a strong, destructive division in the national and religious field, so now - despite the homogeneity of Polish society - divisions in the Third Polish Republic are as strong as they were then, only that they concern on world-view issues. Hence my first question. Who do you feel in terms of religious and national identity?
Oh God, it sounds terrible, but I feel Polish Catholic. When it comes to being a Catholic, you know that religious affiliation is a constant fight to stay in that belonging. Ethnicity and culture are, fortunately, something given, so I feel Pole.

When did your family assimilate?

In the interwar period. They were Jews. My great-grandfather Baruch was a hard Jew. He spoke in Yiddish. What happened to my grandfather's family, I don’t know this to the end, because everyone except grandfather was killed during the Holocaust. My grandfather assimilated itself to Polishness through communism. This, however, was one of the ways of assimilation for Jews. In a way terrifying but true. My grandfather was an ideologist. However, he didn’t build a Stalinist commune.

Is it because of your Jewish origin that you are talking about Polish-Jewish relations in your journalism?
I think this is one of the reasons. As you are called David, and in the name of Wildstein, if you go to the yard or go to primary school or high school, then the matter is clear. Then as if reality made me feel my Jewishness. My parents also told me about it. And besides, it was neutral to me. For me, it was a bit of an intellectual co-opting that took place through studying and learning about Jewish philosophy. It was a very strong intellectual blow and delight for me.

In one of the interviews, you said that you were delighted with the Star of Salvation of the Jewish dialogue philosopher Franz Rosenzweig.
Yes. I am getting into it today.

He, in spite of his spiritual dilemmas and sympathy for Christianity, finally chose Judaism. You chose Christianity.
I am not, however, Rosenzweig, although I really wanted to be him. I am begging you, I don’t grow up to him. I think that if someone would say that he had adopted Christianity, it wouldn’t be very mature. I think, however, that religion chooses you. It isn’t that you are a conceit man, in itself and you choose your own way. It is religion that finds you. This happens through different experiences. For the unbeliever, these are random cases. For believers, however, these are the signs of choice. So I wobbled between the two choices. However, with all my enthusiasm for Judaism, and I really delight in it, I have always felt more comfortable in the Church. Besides, I'm not halahic, and Franz Rosenzweig was. Ethnicity is very important in the Jewish religion.

You were baptized quite late, because you were 10 years old. Was it a conscious choice on your part, or did other considerations decide otherwise?
Dude, I don’t remember much. I was a youngster then. I don’t want to pretend and create some post factum interpretation. In my opinion, it was conditioned more socially than some deeper thoughts. In the environment in which I grew up, religion wasn’t very exposed. The parents were not religious. Rational entry into religion took place much later. I just met the right people on my way. And here are the social reasons and again Darek Malejonek. However, Catholicism in Poland has always fascinated me and I considered it very beautiful. Language and culture are close to me, and this is a fundamental matter. Whether we like it or not, we are brought up much more in Christian culture than in Jewish culture. So it was the choice, not the other, that does not surprise me. I didn’t want to challenge anything with my choice. Rather, keep going in some direction, and it just turned into this page.

You said that your choice isn’t surprising. The path that you have chosen isn’t the result of the fact that to feel fully Polish, you have to be a Catholic, because Catholicism is to fulfill the Polishness? In the end, the couplet often repeats to him: "Only under this cross, only under this sign. Poland is Poland, and Pole is Pole. "
The fact that Catholicism is the complement of Polishness is obvious. However, you don’t have to believe in a given ontological layer to be fully Polish. There are even more important things. Somewhere at the end there is a sacrifice, a fight for freedom, and certainly these are fundamental things. But it is good, if we are talking about things not so important, but still very important, like a culture, how do you want to understand Mickiewicz or Słowacki without good knowledge about Catholicism? Well, it can’t be! How do you want to understand your own culture and poetry, without even knowing those two authors?! Here's the answer. Of course, you can know Catholicism well, but don’t believe in it. At the same time, if you intend to cultivate your tradition and not to contest it, then you must be aware that it flows from Catholicism par excellence.

When finding yourself in Catholicism, did you at the same time not exclude yourself from the Jewish milieu in Poland?
It depends. For some, I'm definitely a stranger. Remember that for an orthodox Jew, I am not a Jew at all and I am not a partner to talk about eschatology dedicated for this particular community. It is a different type of eschatology of salvation than Gentiles (Goi). The compulsive faith of people entering orthodoxy usually excludes them from some experience of reality. However, hard Jewish orthodoxy is a very strong identity choice. This is fundamental. Contrary to the mumbling of many people, Gentiles, however, also exist as an element of eschatology, which is complemented by the salvation of gentiles. There are also so many Jews who will talk with the gosh about eschatology. However, there are also many Jews who treat their Jewishness as a pretext to spit on Poland. They certainly will not like me. There are some who will not like me, because I'm just not the coolest guy in the world. It's a very personal matter. If, however, we take the Polish Jewish environment, it state isn’t result from the fault of the people in it, but from plowing it through war and then through communism. You have many people there who know they are Jews, but they are so incredibly secularized that they don’t know for themselves what it is supposed to mean and they get lost in it. This is the problem of this environment.

Do you have Jewish Catholics among your friends?
I have, but not many. And actually, as I wonder, none of them is my close friend. I know that there are many Jews on the Neocatechumenal way, that is, people of Jewish origin. The Neo-Catechumenal Way is very powerful because it shows the flow of Christianity from Judaism. Of course, this isn’t necessary. It is possible on theological ground - I am talking here about theology of Judaism - to deny this outflow, but it helps a person of Jewish origin to enter Christianity, because he sees that it flows from his culture. There is no contradiction. I don’t think that Judaism and Catholicism are ruled out. You can think like I am, that Catholicism is a great finishing touch of Judaism, and what I like so much about the Neocatechumenate is that accentuates it so much and at the same time does not give up the Christian core at all. It has a gigantic estimate for its sources. He returns to them and knows how to admire them. It understands that knowing these sources is necessary for understanding yourself now. However, it does not give a concession in any way. In general, it does not surprise me that people are going in this direction. It's very nice to listen to Hebrew songs. Not even Hebrew. There are many songs on the Neocatechumenal way, which are in fact assimilated Hassidic songs. Neocatechumenate is, in fact, the hardest Christianity I've ever met.

Was it just the Neocatechumenal path that led to the first Christian communities - which included mainly Jews - that attracted you to the Church?
Certainly yes. It was beautiful. However, what is most important in Christianity, or religion in general, is that it permits the coexistence of many time parts within it, without giving any priority to it. Summa summarum, the beginning and the end are the most important. The end is supposed to be more important, but the beginning is with God, and therefore all the points between the beginning and the end are equivalent to each other. They are just as far and as close to God. And this is beautiful when you see these folds of history, culture, perspectives that overlap each other. I had such experience in Ukraine, but it is wider for me, especially in the Catholic Church. It was like I was in the Polish Borderlands. I went to Mass to the crumbling Polish church in which old women sang, remembering Borderlands time. They sang in Polish with Russian way, more Orthodox than Catholic way. At the same time it was a Catholic rite. And what did they sing? Ancient Hebrew songs. Where in one reality do you have such a melange and such coexistence of elements that are equivalent to each other?! Such wealth?! In general, it is unlikely that everything that we have today, this mosaic of cultures and possibilities, it is a lie and sad remnants. In the meantime, the depths of layers that are discovered in religion are simply amazing. And it does not matter if you believe in God or not. This is the carrier and the acceptance for the next times. However, modern culture devours, crushes. In religion there is affirmation, maybe a little overlap, like an oyster pearl. There are many pearls, however, and you can draw all of them. It's unbelievable! That damn Christmas tree that's hanging here! Eliot beautifully puts it in his poem about Christmas trees. When we are putting the Christmas tree, we are Jews. We are poor, dirty shepherds who come out of Egypt as ancient refugees. It's stuck in this goddamn Christmas tree with her baubles. Don’t say it isn’t beautiful?!

For sure it is. However, in order to be able to afford such an assessment, you must first be aware of the richness of meanings and depth of the content that the symbol may contain or potentially contain.
I don’t know. It is certainly an individual matter. However, any radically deep repository of ideas in confrontation with reality must lose. We can’t use it fully and it is no wonder that this is what is happening. What would it be for faith if it consisted of a bunch of exalted shanties that would be excited by the same things. As I used to think about it, I recognize that religion is in fact the most original poetry. What is the reason for poetry? With the unlimited possibility of a word. I mean, it suddenly turns out that through words that are the natural means of your and my communication, you can create new worlds and organize emotions. By using the word you transcend your reality. Somehow, this is what religion is originally. What wouldn’t be talking about this man, whatever degree of self-reflection and intelligence he would have, he must go to church and listen to God who won through the cross. He must listen to the chosen nation, whose election was based on that he was banished and expelled from his land, and then he was almost completely murdered a dozen times! He must hear that he has to love his enemy! He must forgive his enemy! For me, the moment they sing: "powers tremble ", or "naked omnipotent" (worlds from polish carols) beautiful in itself. This contradiction is wonderful! Do you understand what's going on? At the heart of Christianity lies precisely this contradictio. This contradiction in word allows for a great depth of interpretation.

Did joining the Neocatechumenate change you in some way?
Yes, dude. I am a degenerate. If something holds me in the moral line, except of course my family, who was the most wonderful family I could have dreamed of, then this is the knowledge of the Neocatechumenate. Of course, It holds me not enough. I have my throws on this road, so I don’t want to say that I am a guy who sits there and is a really successful member of this community, because I'm probably far from it. For sure, however, this is one of the most important ladders for me.

In what, if at all, does your Catholic radicalism manifest itself in contact with the Polish right wing?
I am a huge sinner and I love God. This is what the Neocatechumenal Way is teaching you. I will not evangelize, therefore. I can only evangelize at the political level, bearing witness to honesty and truth in what I do, if it is so and I'm not mistaken. I hope that I would do so regardless of my faith. One does not flow out of the other. But I will teach no one how to be a Catholic. What are you, never!

Do Jews still have an important role to play in the Church and in Christianity?
From reading Saint. Paweł and not only, it seems that we are supposed to wait for the conversion of Jews and then it will be good. Regardless of this fact, I have always argued that the broadly understood Jews, as an ethnic, religious group, as a certain cultural group, are those that don’t allow Catholicism to flee into heresy. They are a hard core that will always remind Catholics: "Remember, Jesus was a poor, concrete Jew who lived in a specific place and at a specific time. He was a Jew by birth!" Note that all the most important heresies came either from the negation of the Old Testament or from the negation of the corporeality of Christ. The Jews are proof of the existence of the essence of this faith. Its source being a weight that does not let faith flow into the abstract region or mistakenly understood mercy. The Jews are the foundation. Every revolution, just like the communist one, sooner or later murdered the Jews. It wanted to liquidate the Jews, because they were representatives of the old order, which must be destroyed, because it is an obstacle to the construction of a new world. When I read today the publications of the so-called open church, there is a very frequent sub-thread of the negation of Judaism. Of course, they don’t say directly that they negate Judaism, because it does not fall, but how to read in what they claim is the God of the Old The testament is cruel, nasty and non-progressive for them. Because he perform different strange actions. This is the same way like German theology just before Nazism, which claimed that the Old Testament is the ideology of the dirty Jewish shepherd who justified their thievery. Jews, however, were a very concrete people who are a guarantee that Christianity will not degenerate. It is a mirror for Christianity, in which it can be viewed. I think this is the role that the Jews have to play in the Church.

Currently, the Church is in the process of being initiated by Jewish communities and the so-called Open Church - debate on whether Jews should be converted to Christianity. A Jewish woman who is Catholic, Stella Zylbersztajn, told me once that Jews should not be converted, but should love them and then they will convert themselves. What do you think?
I don’t know, brother, you ask complicated questions. Who knows, maybe this is the way that will lead us to the end. It's a pretty vision, but it's very strange not to approach someone else's way of leading to salvation. One must be aware that through His mercy only Christ is the way and salvation. It must be remembered that Judaism isn’t a proselytic religion, but a closed religion, so Judaism as such isn’t a competition for Christianity. Nevertheless, the Neocatechumenate is aimed at the rabbis. Of course, this is a very specific conversion, but it is conversion. Perhaps this is a deep contradiction that I don’t understand. I know, however, that what religion gives is something that contradicts homogenization. Religion forces us to accept the contradictions of paradoxes. My friend, a priest, once said something fundamental to me, namely that orthodoxy is the path of paradox and one must be aware of it. Shit, I think that's how it is.

In the book “Memory and Identity” of Saint. John Paul II wrote: "Historically, Polishness has had a very interesting evolution behind it. Such evolution probably didn’t go to any other ethnicity in Europe. Forward, in the period when the tribes Polan, Wiślan and others fused, Piast's Polishness was a unifying element: to say it was pure Polishness. Then for five centuries it was the Polishness of the Jagiellonian era: it allowed the creation of the Commonwealth of many nations, many cultures. All Poles carried this religion and national diversity in. For myself, I am from Małopolska, from the area of the former Wiślan, strongly connected with Krakow. But even here, in Małopolska - maybe even more in Cracow than anywhere - one felt closeness of Vilnius, Lviv and the East. An extremely important ethnic factor in Poland was also the presence of Jews. I remember that at least one-third of my classmates in the common school in Wadowice were Jews. There were fewer of them in the gymnasium. I was friends with some. And what hit me was their Polish patriotism. It seems that this Jagiellonian "dimension of Polishness”, which I mentioned, has ceased to be something obvious in our time". John Paul II repeatedly emphasized his admiration and respect for Polishness in the Jagiellonian dimension. Not only in the Second Polish Republic and in the PRL, but also now two ideologies of Polishness are clashed together. This original Polishness of the Piasts, which opposes religious, ethnic and culture pluralism, and Jagiellonian Polishness, which takes into account all this diversity, while emphasizing the supremacy of Polishness and culture based on Christian values. Are Poles today aware of the clash of these two ideas?
I think they are aware, but between God and the truth, the fight isn’t bad in itself. One can assume that the Jagiellonian idea, if we already use the term, also tends to such an absurd romanticism and to go into abstraction, so it would be good if there was a counterweight in the form of the Piast idea, to draw it on the principle of entering into conflict. Of course, I think, that in terms of possibilities, the Jagiellonian idea is the most appropriate for us. However, the Jagiellonian Poland was an intellectual and political power, not a Piast Poland, and I would stop there.

Reaching only to the Second Polish Republic, we often reach for a vacuum, because in reality the roots of the Second Polish Republic go back to the First Polish Republic. Should the twenty-first century Poland refer to the achievements and patterns worked out by the First Polish Republic, reciting the most valuable of them?
I believe that Poland's legacy, which it has irretrievably lost, is still present in the Church, and the more we should abide in it. This is the legacy of the First Polish Republic. This is of course an imaginary heritage, but every legacy is in some sense imaginary, because we aren’t able to keep the same at all times. I completely don’t understand this rave that the First Republic was really terrible and we are mythologizing it. Against the background of Europe it wasn’t terrible, but that's not the point. The point is that we should mythologize her. Let's get out of it what is good and let us create a new axiology that will lead us to the future, because only thanks to this we will be able to reproduce virtues and values. And it wasn’t more beautiful in positive terms of (with all its flaws) political project in Europe than Rzeczpospolita.

Henryk Sienkiewicz reaching back to the glory days of Commonwealth - regardless of our real origin - he made noblemen of all Poles. How do you feel among the noble identity of Poles?
Great. This noble identity gets through as a topos to a collective experience. In total, this is an idealized vision, but fortunately because of this that it has no monstrous faults. Noble has been indicated for us as a goal. Sure, I prefer to match up, not down. I don’t want to offend the peasant perspective in any way, but let us rule out the noble principle, instead of making of all peasants and let everyone have freedom, let everyone be a citizen and not a working mass, it is simply the best. Nobility is more suited to me.

Just before Poland regained its independence, a Union of Poles of the Mosaic Confession was established in Lviv. Today, almost no one describes himself as a Pole of the Mosaic religion among people who have Jewish origins. Is this the result of the Holocaust or are there other things like this?
Recognizing himself as a Pole of the Mosaic religion was precisely the result of this damn tradition of the First Polish Republic. It was in some way reworked during the Partitions of Poland, but it was tradition that enabled Jews to go this way. The Germans, however, completely destroyed it, destroying the biological tissue. Today, no one is called himself in this way. One of the reasons is that today there are very few Jews at all. You can’t compare millions to a few thousand.

In your journalism and public appearances, you don’t hide your sympathy for Israel. What do you value this country for?
I think it is an amazing state. A state full of paradoxes and contradictions. Fascinating. A state created in the Holy Land. It is one of the few countries in this world that is a successful democracy and is aware of war. I like his civic ethos and the way he treats the army. I like - a complete stranger in Europe - a leftist and right-wing compromise on fundamental issues such as state defense or ethnic issues. I like this. However, some times of such uncritical support for Israel have passed. Israel has terribly many sins on its conscience. However, I believe it and it is obvious to me that in this entire conflict, Israel has the least of these sins. Nevertheless, he has sins.

Do you think any strategic alliance between Poland and Israel is possible?
I think that such an alliance is possible in the area of historical policy. However, it must take some time for this to happen. Let's remember that we have Germans who will do everything to burst it.

Unfortunately, neither the bombing of Dresden nor the defeat in the biggest war of the world, which the Germans themselves called up, almost didn’t teach them anything. Increasingly, prussic, Teutonic arrogance and haughtiness are familiar with them. Germany behaves as if setting the concept of the future of the EU and defining European values was reserved "nur für Deutsche". Still in the WW2, prof. Ludwik Hirszfeld in his autobiography entitled "The story of one life": he predicted which way the Germans would go in the future: "The times will come when the Germans want to reconcile with the world. It will have to undo for the millions of those murdered. This is best done by German Jews themselves. They will be - the others - may happy that the Jewish case was liquidated. The Germans will have slight remorse. Such reproaches have their value, they can be converted into cash or receipts. Perhaps a Jew will take over the minister of foreign affairs. That would be the cheapest demonstration of the new course. They will say: "This Hitler is a madman. You can’t blame the entire nation for him. Let's talk better about Beethoven. " - About the same, which the Jews were not allowed to listen for years with loud or silent approval of the German nation. - "What a beautiful adagio this is. You can’t talk about murders forever. Let us create the great International of People Well-Brought. " And they will say - maybe the Jews themselves: "Quieter over this grave". Well: I don’t want it. "
Unfortunately, today, more and more often, when one speaks of the Germans' guilt, one hears: "Quieter over this grave". A completely different reaction, however, takes place when one speaks about guilt and responsibility of other nations, including Poles.
I remember when I was in Warmia in 2014, I met a German woman from Bavaria who rested an agritourism farm guided by my friends. She came to pay the aid to the Germans who decided to stay in these areas after the war. We had the opportunity to watch the final of the World Cup in football, in which the German national team and the Argentina team met. When Germany won, I hurried to congratulate her. However, she didn’t accept the congratulations, saying with an insulted expression that she wasn’t a German but a European woman. The next day, while eating a meal together, a European from Munich, explained to me that Germans aren’t really "Germans" today, but "Europeans". They have already settled their crimes and have definitively rejected nationalism. Now it is the turn of the Poles. If, like Germany, we would like to become "true Europeans", we first have to "face our infamous past, settle our crimes against Jews and reject Polish nationalism." Thanks to this short but instructive lecture, I quickly understood what the post-war German catharsis was all about. It was a process of moving from an unsuccessful attempt to subjugate Europe by force - through by settling, at the clear order of the Allies, from its crimes and the attempted transformation - forced and top-down - examination of conscience on the moral right to lead in "new Europe".
Instead of giving up the pretense of leadership once and for all, the Germans went to Canossa after the war, from which they quickly returned with even greater self-esteem and the conviction of having the right to impose their own will on other, yet unenlightened, European nations and to indicate which from them grew up to Europe, which should be excluded or quarantined.
Germany has been spreading and still, unfortunately, spreading its errors all over the world. It is hard not to mention here Martin Luther, Karl Marx, the father of modern jihad, Max von Oppenheim, or sending Włodzimierz Lenin - like a can of Pandora - to tsarist Russia. In Germany, the Reformation was born, which led to the destruction of the Church in Western Europe. Communism and Nazism came out of Germany and, in a way, modern jihad. In a word, the greatest plague of humanity. As you can see, next to Russia, Germans have been creating or putting into practice poisoned ideologies that later set the world on fire. At present, they promote the idea of "Europeanism" which they control from the top, and they excel in undermining the foundations of teaching the Catholic Church. It isn’t surprising that the Poles reject their mentoring, which remind them of the color-blind lectures on the subject of distinguishing colors. Remembering past events, they see that the only thing that has changed in the case of Germany is that they once conquered Europe with their arms and military power, and today they do it - in white gloves and with mouth full of platitudes - through economic expansion. German nationalism wasn’t - along with the fall of the Third Reich and the process of denazification - buried. He underwent only a kind of transformation, taking on a new form, but keeping his original core, which was and still is, the irresistible urge to lead others. In essence, only the ideological paths of German nationalism were changed, abandoning anti-Semitism, racism and Nazism in favor of the German concept of "Europeanism", which contains in its core - still alive - German prometeism.
After the invocation of two world wars, Germany is still eager to bring light to the remaining, dark nations of Europe. The certainty and pride with which they do this is much more reminiscent of the contaminated luciferous illumination than the divine epiphany. This is evident in the Germans, even if in their sense of superiority with regard to states and nations located east of the Oder. Nazi anti-Semitism didn’t come out of nowhere. It was part of the contempt for the barbaric, backward eastern peoples that existed earlier among the Germans, to which, in addition to Jews, also included Poles and other "Slavic Untermenschen". Before Kristallnacht finally took place, first came Kulturkampf, Prussian ejection, beating Polish children from Września, dispute over Drzymała's car, adoption of a muzzle act, or dissemination by German Protestant settlers who came to the United States, anti-Polish stereotypes which, thanks to the Tzarist, and later Soviet and Nazi propaganda lay at the origin of the so-called polish jokes.
The fact that German anti-Semitism was part of a wider problem is also perfectly illustrated by the pre-war contemptuous attitude of German Jews towards Polish Jews. However, even after the war, in Germany, both in the Federal Republic of Germany and in the GDR, institutionally to fight against anti-Semitism, anti-polonism wasn’t fought at all. Because of this, unfortunately, it is still deeply rooted among German society and, above all, German elites. Hence the constant mockery and instruction for Poles by the German media. Hence also the reluctance of German politicians to restore to Poles in Germany the status of a national minority taken away from them during Hitler's era, or the frequent withdrawal of children to Polish parents and forbidding them to speak in Polish. Almost few people remember that during the German occupation of Poland, the Jugendamt employees kidnapped and Germanised about 150,000 children. Polish children who disappeared in German society after the war and never returned to Poland, thus remaining completely cut off from their roots.
The Polish victims of the Third Reich are quickly forgotten in Germany. To this day, we have not lived to see a monument in Berlin commemorating Poles murdered during the WW2. Young Germans have no idea about the scale of crimes their ancestors did on the Poles. They don’t learn history lessons about the fact that their grandparents killed about 60,000 in just three days during the slaughter of Wola civilians and none of the perpetrators of this genocide has ever been punished. Every year, around 30,000 young Jews come to Poland from distant Israel to learn about the history of the Holocaust. Why, then, don’t many more young Germans come to Poland from nearby Germany to visit Auschwitz, Majdanek and the Warsaw Uprising Museum, or the Museum of the WW2? In this respect, it isn’t possible to blame only Germans and their revisionist historical policy. First look in the mirror and hit your breast. Germans have such a policy, because we have given way to them completely. If the head of the Polish Foreign Ministry, Radoslaw Sikorski, called Berlin to take the lead in Europe, and the President of Poland, Bronisław Komorowski, honored the memory of the Nazi colonel, Claus von Stauffenberg, who regarded the Poles as "a stupid mob who feels good under the whip," and also during his stay in Berlin saw no problem in making the German resistance movement - being essentially one of the Nazi factions – equal with the Home Army. Thus entering into the German historical policy, which the Nazis were someone external, which one of the first victims were Germans, it is no wonder that the German historical narrative displaces the Polish narrative also in Poland itself.
The Germans have long ago turned their guilt into political power. They imposed on the other nations their own perception, according to which German guilt and historical experience are essentially common and universal guilt and experience. That is why, in their propaganda, they are now targeting the Poles, wanting us also to take on at least part of the responsibility for the Holocaust. The German narrative does not fit the fact that during the war there was a nation that not only opposed them and was exterminated by them, but also, as far as their - very limited - possibilities, tried to save Jews.
Catholic Poland with its history and identity is now a salt in the eye of not only German historical politics, which is a litmus test of the German imperial aspirations, but also all leftist circles that have recently made a whipping boy. It is the last bastion of the old, traditional European order. Despite the increasing adversities, it still remains the mainstay of normality in the realm of the absurd. Not only Poland is now the object of fierce attacks by utopian leftist circles. Today's left is even more anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli than the European right-wing, which has recently made a close connection with the Jews and Israel, treating it as a forerunner of Western civilization. Of course, I don’t mean the far right.

In the case of the left, this is due to two very simple reasons. It was, after all, a necessary evolution of the left. The left as a revolutionary road has been culturally anti-Semitic, as well as ethnically anti-Semitic, because cultural specifics had to catch on ethnicity. The left has always had anti-Semitic potential. When Jews created the Israeli state, they ceased to be victims by means of which the given political segment could be exploded by indicating them as an example. As a result, they stopped being useful, they dropped out. On the left, the chosen nations are rotational, not permanent, as with God. The second reason is that it is a necessary political choice for the left, because the left has a vigilance for the electorate, which is fed from year to year with an increasing proportion of immigrants from Muslim countries. It is clear, then, that the left will flatter them and will turn a blind eye to their extreme anti-Semitism or even support them in it. This is the usual dynamics of political activities.

To paraphrase the words you once uttered, Jews aren’t an entity for the environment with left-wing provenance, but an object and a tool that they use to pursue particular goals. Finally, Jews tend to be the victims of these environments, but not their beneficiaries.
Yes, it is obvious. This is an attempt to politicize the Jewish case very strongly through anti-Semitic perspective, which says that if you are a certain ethnic blood or culture, then you must adhere to a specific set of political views. After all, this is exactly what the Nazis used to say. Of course, while maintaining all proportions. However, this is determinism. And this is particularly striking in the case of "Krytyka Polityczna" and Gazeta Wyborcza. It's ridiculous what they can do. In such a "Krytyka Polityczna", sometimes it is even say it expressis verbis. They are delighted with Alain Badiou, who claims that Jew is a relative term. The one who is such is the Jew. Currently, the Jews are women or Amazonian forests. The Jews in the case of Badiou are Palestinians. It's about completely rinsing out of the content. It is a peculiar leftist play in the polysemia of concepts on the principle of complete freedom and detachment from the semantic core in favor of the free possibility of their use. Such activities are standard for them. This is evident not only in the case of Jews. However, Polish Jews are a very convenient baseball bat because we have Jewish trauma and anti-semitism in Poland.
 
In turn, right-wing circles accuse the Jews of not cutting off the ideological option presented by the circles of "Gazeta Wyborcza" and "Krytyka Polityczna", which use them to push their ideas. Some Polish rightists can’t comprehend that Jews are as diverse in their worldviews as Poles, and therefore such a definitive cut-off isn’t possible at all. Is there any way out of this schizophrenic situation?
We are in some absurdity. The right wing reaction is essentially anti-Semitic. What does it mean that a nation, or an ethnic category, should be cut off from something. Everyone is in the nation. They are morons and intellectuals, they are ugly, they are pretty, they are left-wing, they are right-wing. Is the nation really supposed to look like that idiots cut themselves off from the intelligentsia, nice from the ugly, and everyone from everyone? Listen, I can write that I despise "Gazeta Wyborcza" and I’m piss off what it doing, but I will never say anything on behalf of all Jews, because what right I have? Tusk said something stupid, and suddenly there is a demand that the Poles cut off from Tusk's speech. Which would mean that he is an important person. Let's that some Ziutek from Bemowo says: "We Poles will rape German women". And suddenly, the Germans want the Poles to cut themselves off from Ziutek. This is complete absurdity! The multi-subjectivity of the nation consists among others in the fact that it consists of entities with different political aspirations and you can’t speak on their behalf.

Don’t you think, however, that the right wing, which does not even mind the Jews, has a certain tendency to collectivize the responsibility of individual Jews for their blameworthy hiding behavior by extending it to all Jews, and does not do it from the reverse direction? For example, if you speak somewhere or write something, often in the comments you can read: "This is our Jew. Unlike others, he is the good Jew! "
Unfortunately, but I think they are still just words. The most dangerous is what "Krytyka Polityczna" and "Gazeta Wyborcza" have been doing for a long time, that is, an attempt at a very strong combination of ethnicity and politics, with political determinism. This is really dangerous. This may in fact incorporate certain connotations in the brain of people who then begin to think a Jew - leftist, blood - political views. There are other pathologies on the right side, but not this type. If someone says our Jew, then I say: go f..k yourself!

Emanuel Ringelblum wrote that "every Pole, even the greatest anti-Semite, has his Jew, whom he likes." Don’t you feel to some extent a kind of alibi for the part of the Polish right who, on the charge of anti-Semitism, can always point to you and say: "What anti-Semitism? We also have Jews on our side! "?
Certainly for some rightists it is as you say, but it seems to me that I have never broken, and as soon as I'm pissed off, I say it and write. I have no resistance to criticize when I see anti-Semitism on the right. I don’t run away from this subject.

In addition to criticizing anti-Semitism, you often point to the Polish right wing as well.
Same as Samuel Pereira or Wojtek Mucha. Listen, if you love your side, you are more concerned about its degeneration. What do I care about levity? If you see that the side you love falls into some gibberish mises, the more you will react a little bit spasmodically.

Despite the fact that there are some anti-Semitic acts in Poland time to time, such as, for example, the setting at the Służewiec cemetery near St. Catherine - most likely by the pro-Russian Falang organization - your tombstone, adorned with the star of David and dated, don’t you think that today's Polish anti-Semitism is in fact anti-Semitism in shorts, and so it is - of course against the background of modern Europe - harmless?
If you take off the bully for having a kipa or sidelocks, then this argument of non-threatness falls out. However, I fully agree with you. I think that anti-Semitism is becoming dangerous at a very specific moment, that is, when it becomes a viable vehicle for political propaganda, which, however, does not exist in Poland. Of course, Nationalists can something rave, but they know that it's much more fun to be anti-Ukrainian. The Pole will grumble the Jew, but he knows that this isn’t really a real political experience, so he will not focus his voice because of anti-Semitism. Therefore, anti-Semitism will be secondary to him, although every anti-Semitism is nasty. However, we have a much less dangerous situation here than even in France, where there is a very strong electorate, which can be bribed with anti-Semitism, especially when it comes to Muslims.

I noticed that you wear a white rosary on the wrist of your right hand. Does he have any other value for you than religious?
This is a rosary from Maidan. I had it with me when the most hardcore things happened on Majdan. You know that because we worked in one newspaper then. This rosary accompanied me as snipers killed people and when Berkut tortured them in the Marian Park. I was in almost center of the events, from where I reported what was going on. So it is a very strong memory for me. It was really hot. Then for the fact that I survived, I thanked fate, and today ... perhaps something greater.
January 2016.
 
 


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